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000023_icon-group-sender _Mon Sep 14 08:25:04 1998.msg
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From: gep2@computek.net
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 03:26:46 -0500 (CDT)
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Subject: Re: Unicode support or support for non-Ascii based character ma
To: icon-group@optima.CS.Arizona.EDU, johnp@ling.uta.edu
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>>... If other countries have more
>difficult (or huge) character sets, that is (while a fact of life) simply an
>inherent disadvantage of their culture (and note that I'm not intending that as
>a slam or value judgement, it just IS the way it is), and I don't see a
terribly convincing argument why the other countries (without that disadvantage)
ought to pay the price too, just in order to artificially level the playing
field.
> This is a shockingly ignorant statement, from a social point of view, and
although I realize that this list is meant for discussion of Icon, and not
social issues or politics, as a sociolinguist who uses Icon in research on
multilingualism online, I cannot let this statement go uncommented.
Hey, I don't mind the discussion. Implementors often have to ask what features
they will and won't add (for a whole variety of reasons). As a designer of
operating systems, I believe sometimes it's as or more important what features
you LEAVE OUT as what you put in.
> Computer professionals on the whole show very little awareness that their
decisions about how to implement technical standards within their fields
are inherently valued.
Oh, I don't know that they're so unaware of that. But it's largely irrelevant
for the large portion of users. There's generally a job to do, limited time and
resources, and the desire to do it as well as possible given those constraints.
> ASCII is a standard with an undeniable bias toward English.
This is hardly surprising... even given the name: American Standard Code for
Information Interchange. It was never designed nor intended to be a worldwide
standard for everybody. It was designed to meet American needs. In fact, it's
generally been extended to come close enough to most people's requirements that
it HAS BECOME a world standard of sorts, but that was not the concern in the
beginning.
> Even the representation and use of languages such as French (from which
English at one time borrowed a large part of its lexicon) requires extraordinary
means. Around the world, the number of English speakers is growing,
while other languages are disappearing at a rate unprecedented in historic
or prehistoric times.
The rate may be different, but the fact is that languages have come and gone
since long before there was ASCII.
> The fact that English is advancing, and the fact that
so much computer technology is biased toward English, is not a value-
neutral fact,
I don't know that anybody pretends it IS value-neutral, but the facts are simply
the facts, and it's likely that some natural languages will survive and some
will die (perhaps to be studied only for academic purposes). I am not convinced
that it is the mission of the computer professionals to be concerned about (or
actively work towards) social or cultural re-engineering.
> as perceived by speakers of the thousands of languages who face the loss of
the continuity of their cultures and histories, while simultaneously trying to
adapt to a world that is changing in ways completely beyond their control.
Extinction is probably rarely a pretty sight... it would be nice to discover
somewhere a small breeding colony of dinosaurs or something. But again, I don't
consider it my mission to keep them alive. In Brittany, the residents are
working to reinstate the teaching of the Breton language, and there's a lot of
ill will because the French aren't very enthusiastic about that. There will
continue to be cultural festivals and such, put together by those determined to
keep their cultural heritage alive, and that's probably as it should be.
> A decision to support Unicode, or something like it which allows
for social and technical purposes other than those supported by ASCII,
Again, note that there *are* other methods which allow supporting extended
characters (FOR THOSE TIMES THEY ARE NEEDED) *with* ASCII. These include code
page switching, which I agree is complex and such, but so is dealing with an
enormous alphabet!!!
> is a decision that is more sensitive to the values of other potential users.
I would probably never deny them the ability to program whatever they want for
their computer. On the other hand, when what they want starts to impinge upon
MY rights and costs, then I have a reason to become involved. :-)
> Not that Unicode will save languages, or that computer professionals
are responsible for the loss of languages,
...thank you...
> ...but rather that in a community
of experts such as the Icon group, who have done so much to facilitate the
study and use of other languages, the expression of a sentiment so singularly
unsupportive of other languages seems incongruous.
I have pointed out here repeatedly that I think Icon is one of the nicest
languages there is for doing the kind of complex manipulations that are involved
in all sorts of processing of natural languages. I fully approve of its use for
such purposes.
But while we're talking about "sensitivity" and "support", how about the
"insensitivity" of those academics who would casually force the great majority
of quite typical users to jump through hoops just so the same implementation can
also support another alphabet (or hundreds of other alphabets!), Sanskrit for
example!? Sounds to me like THEY aren't considering the needs of the others,
either!
Gordon Peterson
http://www.computek.net/public/gep2/
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